Mu ijoro ryacyeye Perezida Kagame yahaye ikiganiro abanyamakuru ba Televiziyo mpuzamahanga y’u Bufaransa France 24.
Taarifa yagishyize mu Kinyarwanda mu nyungu z’abasomyi bayo:
Ikiganiro cyayobowe na Marc Perelman na Madamu Alexandra Brangeon.
France 24: Ese kuba Perezida Macron azaza mu Rwanda mu minsi mike iri imbere ni intambwe nziza yo kugarura umubano w’ibihugu byombi mu buryo?
Kagame: Ndatangira mvuga ko ari ikintu kiza kuba azaza mu gihugu cyacu kandi tumuhaye ikaze. Icyo navuga rero ni uko raporo ziherutse gusohoka ku ruhare rw’u Bufaransa muri Jenoside yakorewe Abatutsi zakiriwe neza mu Rwanda kandi nkeka ko no mu Bufaransa ari ko bimeze, abantu bakishimira ko hari ukuri kwagiye ahagaragara bikozwe n’abantu bigenga.
Yaba raporo yakozwe na Prof Duclert n’iyacu yakozwe na Komisiyo Muse zifite ibyo zihuza kandi byerekana ko u Bufaransa n’u Rwanda bizabiheraho bikagira ibyo byumvikana kugira ngo ibintu bigende neza.
Ubwo rero n’ubwo amateka tutayibagirwa, ariko siyo tugomba kwimiriza imbere ngo atubuze gutera intambwe mu mubano mwiza.
France 24: Nyakubahwa muravuga ko ziriya raporo zifite ibyo zihuriyeho, kandi ziriya raporo zivuga ko n’ubwo u Bufaransa hari uruhare rugaragara bwagize mu kwirengagiza ko iriya Jenoside yategurwaga ariko rutayigizemo uruhare rutaziguye. Ese namwe niko mubyemera?
Kagame: Hari ibintu byinshi nemeranya na ziriya raporo kandi ntekereza ko hakiri byinshi byo gukora mu kureba uko ibintu byose byagenze. Icyo navuga ni uko iby’ingenzi byakozwe. Iyo bavuze ngo ‘uruhare rugaragara’ burya baba bavuze ikintu gikomeye, gifite byinshi gisobanuye. Ubwo rero rwose sinjye wari mu mwanya mwiza wo kuvuga ngo ‘ibi sibyo mwagombye kuba mwaranzuye’ ahubwo mwari bwanzure biriya…oya!. Icyo nemera ni uko hari ibyo nanjye numvise ko bikwiye gufatanwa uburemere, birimo kumva ko umwanzuro ziriya raporo zagezeho ari intambwe ifatika yatuma dutera imbere mu mubano wacu.
France 24: Muravuga muti: ‘Hari ibyo nasanze twakwemera’ ariko mu myaka nk’icumi ishize mu kiganiro twagiranye mwavuze ko u Bufaransa ‘butabaye icyitso cy’iriya Jenoside gusa ahubwo ko bwanayigizemo uruhare rugaragara’ . Ko mwumvikana nk’abahinduye imvugo muri iki gihe Nyakubahwa?
Kagame: Ariko mfite uburenganzira bwo gutanga igitekerezo cyanjye kandi ibyo mbabwira ni uko byose byabaye mpari ndeba. Ibyo narabivuze kandi nabivuze mbyemera ndetse n’ubu ndacyabyemera ariko ibyo turi kuganiraho ubu ni ibyerekeye ibyavuye mu maperereza yakozwe na za Komisiyo zigenga. Abakoze ziriya raporo hari imyanzuro bagezeho kandi ibyo byari akazi kabo. Ntabwo kari akazi kanjye.
France 24: Leta zunze ubumwe z’Amerika n’Umuryango w’Abibumbye ndetse n’u Bubiligi basabye imbabazi u Rwanda kubera ibyo batakoze ngo batabare Abatutsi bicwaga muri 1994. U Bufaransa bwo ntibwigeze buzisaba. Ese mwifuza ko nabwo bwazisaba?
Kagame: U Bufaransa nibwo bugomba guhitamo icyo bwakora. Ikintu kibi ntakora kandi rwose mbizeze ko ntazagikora na rimwe ni ugusaba uwo ari we wese kudusaba imbabazi ngo ntibakoze cyangwa bakoze kiriya. Ibyo ni amahitamo yabo ntawe nzabihatira. Abatuye isi nibo baca urubanza bakareba igikwiye.
France 24: Yego birumvikana ko ntawe mwabihatira ariko nanone byaba ari igikorwa kiza baramutse babikoze?
Kagame: Niko mbikeka! Iyo hari umuntu wumvise ko yahemukiye undi akamusaba imbabazi abikuye ku mutima, buri gihe biba ari igikorwa kiza.
France 24: Mbese ni nk’uko bizaba ari igikorwa kiza u Bufaransa nibwohereza Ambasaderi wabwo mu Rwanda!
Kagame: Cyane rwose! Turi kubinoza.
France 24: Ese yaba ari gutegurwa?
Kagame: Ni ko mbyifuza. Ariko byose ni ubushake bw’u Bufaransa.
France 24: Hashize amezi make u Bufaransa butaye muri yombi Felisiyani Kabuga ukurikiranyweho gutera inkunga Jenoside yakorewe Abatutsi. Ese byerekana ko u Bufaransa bwiyemeje gufata abakekwaho Jenoside bari ku butaka bwabwo?
Kagame: Ntekereza ko ari intambwe nziza bwateye kandi twifuza ko yakomeza. Turabusaba gukomereza muri uwo mujyo igafata n’abandi bakekwaho uruhare muri Jenoside yakorewe Abatutsi baba hano mu Bufaransa batarakanirwa urubakwiye.
France 24: Reka dufate urugero rwa Agatha Habyarimana wari umufasha wa Perezida Juvenal Habyarimana. Ese u Rwanda rwifuza ko yafatwa akoherezwayo? Dosiye ye nayo yabaye igitotsi ku mubano w’ibihugu byombi.
Kagame: Ndagira ngo nkumenyeshe ko ikibazo cya Agatha cyangwa undi uwo ariwe wese kitabuza ko hari ibigenda neza hagati yacu n’u Bufaransa. Muri iki gihugu hari benshi nkawe.
France 24: Ariko niwe ukomeye ubarimo!
Kagame: Ni umwe mu bandi bakomeye bari inaha. Ari ku rutonde rurerure rw’abandi bakekwaho kiriya cyaha ariko icyo navuze kandi nkomeje kubabwira ni uko byose biri mu biganza by’u Bufaransa. Sinabategeka icyo bakora gusa nagira icyo mbasaba kandi ndamutse ngize icyo nsaba u Bufaransa kuri iyi ngingo, nabikora mu buryo bweruye binyuze mu buryo Leta zivugana.
France 24: Tukiri ku byerekeranye n’ubutabera no kubazwa inshingano, mu kwezi gushize Dr Denis Mukwege watwaye Prix Nobel yari ari mu Bufaransa, abusaba ko bwatanga umusanzu mu gufata abantu bose bagize uruhare mu byaha byakorewe mu Burasirazuba bwa DRC, bimwe akavuga ko byakozwe n’abasirikare bo mu bihugu buturanye nayo harimo n’u Rwanda. Ese muzemera ko abasirikare bakuru mu ngabo zanyu bavugwaho ruriya ruhare bagezwa imbere y’ubutabera mpuzamahanga?
Kagame: Nk’uko mubizi neza ibikubiye mu kiswe ‘Mapping Report’ ntacyavuzweho rumwe ndetse abantu bakigiyemo impaka biratinda. Ni raporo ikozwe kinyapolitiki kurusha uko ikozwe gihanga. Mukwege rero yabaye igikoresho cy’abanyapolitiki. Bisa n’aho akirangiza guhabwa igihembo cya Nobel yahise aba ijwi ry’abashaka ko abavugira. Erega hari n’izindi raporo zavuguruje iyo ya Mapping!
France 24: Izo raporo se zavugaga ko nta bwicanyi bwakorewe mu Burasirazuba bwa DRC?
Kagame: Cyane rwose. Iby’iriya raporo yiswe Mapping erega bivuga icyo bise ‘double genocide’.
France 24: Muri iki gihe mu Burasirazuba bwa DRC hari intambara, imirwano, ubwicanyi n’ibindi. Ibintu bikomeje kuba bibi muri kariya gace. Leta ya DRC yashyize biriya bice mu bihe bidasanzwe bizamara ukwezi cyangwa se kurenga. Ese musanga kiriya cyemezo gikwiye?
Kagame: Ku bwanjye nsanga Leta ya DRC yararebye isanga muri kariya gace hari ikibazo kiremereye nayo ifata icyemezo kiremereye. Nanjye nari bubikore ariko bigomba gukurikirwa n’umugambi usobanutse ndetse n’ibikorwa byo kurangiza icyo kibazo kandi mu buryo budasubirwaho. Nta kintu kinini byaba bimaze gukura ibibazo ahantu runaka ariko mu gihe gito bikagaruka.
Ariko ubwo mujya mwibuka ko hariya hantu hamaze igihe kirekire hari ingabo z’Umuryango w’abibumbye zoherejweyo ngo zihagarure amahoro? Ubu hashize imyaka 24 kandi baracyariyo. Ubu se muri iyi myaka ko ntawe urazibaza icyo zagezeho?
France 24: Muremeza se ko zatsinzwe?
Kagame: Gutsindwa gusa? Zaratsinzwe bikomeye!
France 24: Kuva Tshisekedi yajya ku butegetsi, abanye neza n’u Rwanda. Mwembi mwemeranyije guhuza imbaraga ku mupaka ubahuza kugira ngo umutekano uhatsimbatare kandi mufatanye kwirukana abarwanyi bakorera muri kariya gace. Ibi bikorwa mubigeze he? Ese u Rwanda rurateganya kuzafatanya na DRC muri biriya bitero?
Kagame: Turacyabiganiraho ariko ikiza muri ibyo byose ni uko byibura hari uburyo bwo kubiganiraho mu mwuka wa kivandimwe. Kandi ibi ntibyahozeho.
France 24: Ariko murateganya no gufatanya muri iyo ntambara?
Kagame: Ibyo nabyo byashoboka ariko byose bizaterwa n’ibyo tuzemeranyaho. Impande zombi zizaganira zireba icyakorwa. Tuzareba icyo bisaba muri ubwo bufatanye.
France 24: Hari abakozi ba UN bavuga ko ingabo zanyu ziri muri DRC.
Kagame: Erega njye nifuza ko ibintu byarenga ibyo! Abo bakozi bagombye ahubwo kwibaza impamvu yatuma u Rwanda rujya yo kandi ari bo bafite inshingano zo guhangana na bariya barwanyi.
France 24 : Ubwo se ntibishatse kuvuga ko mwemera ko muri yo?
Kagame: Oya ahubwo ndemeza ko iyo UN itanga izo raporo ari yo yatsindiwe muri DRC inanirwa kuzuza inshingano zayijyanye yo.
France 24: Nonese koko, ubu nta ngabo z’u Rwanda ziri muri DRC?
Kagame: Oya rwose. Ndagira ngo nguhamirize ko iyo nza kohereza ingabo zanjye muri kiriya gihugu zitari gutsindwa na gato. Ndabizeza ko tudashobora kunanirwa gukemura ibibazo twinjiyemo ibyo ari byo byose.
France 24: Tugarutse ku bibera mu Rwanda, Paul Rusesabagina ari kuburanishwa ku byaha birimo iby’iterabwoba. We avuga ko abeshyerwa.
Kagame: Icya mbere ni uko atari we ubutabera bwacu bukurikiranye wenyine mu idosiye aregwamo. Ari kumwe n’abandi bafatanyaga kandi bamushinja.Sinumva impamvu abantu bacitse ururondogoro bibaza impamvu ari mu rukiko. Ari mu rukiko ntabwo ari ahandi hantu hatazwi.
France 24: Abantu bacitse ururondogoro barasakuza kubera uko yatawe muri yombi, bavuga ko yashimuswe azanwa mu Rwanda.
Kagame: Ni iki kibi kiri mu gushuka umugizi wa nabi ngo umute muri yombi? Ikibazo ahubwo cyaba kumenya aho umushyira iyo umaze kumuta muri yombi. Iyo umufashe ukamujyana mu rukiko, ikibi kibirimo ni ikihe?
France 24: USA n’abandi bavuga ko atazahabwa ubutabera buboneye, bakabishingira k’ukuntu yatawe muri yombi.
Kagame: Njye nifuza ko yahabwa ubutabera buboneye. Ntabwo ari USA, UK cyangwa abanyaburayi bagomba kubidusaba. Erega ntawe utakwifuza guhabwa ubutabera buboneye. Ninde wababwiye ko igitekerezo cyo guha cyangwa guhabwa ubutabera buboneye ari umwihariko w’Abanyaburayi n’Abanyamerika gusa?
Burya rero iyo mitekerereze niyo bitinda ikazavamo ivangura rishingiye ku ruhu. Hari abumva ko kugira ngo ikintu gikorerwe neza mu Rwanda cyangwa muri Afurika kigomba kuba gifite abakiyoborera iyo mu Burayi cyangwa muri Amerika!
France 24: Ababitekereza batyo babishingira ku byagiye bitangazwa n’ibigo byita ku burenganzira bwa muntu bibashinja kutabwubahiriza, bigatanga urugero rwo gufatwa kwa Kizito Mihigo wigeze kujora ubutegetsi bwanyu, nyuma akaza kugwa muri kasho ya Polisi. Leta ivuga ko yiyahuye ariko biriya bigo bivuga ko yishwe.
Kagame: Ikibazo kigomba kureberwa mu byavuye mu iperereza cyangwa ibyemejwe n’inkiko.
France 24: Mushatse kuvuga ko mwemeye ko hazakorwa iperereza rikozwe n’itsinda ryigenga ngo hamenyekane icyateye urupfu rwa Mihigo?
Kagame: Ngo itsinda bwoko ki? Ushatse kuvuga ko haramutse hari ikibereye hano i Paris cyangwa ahandi mu Bufaransa mwakwemera ko haza itsinda ryigenga rikabikoraho iperereza?
France 24: Mu kurangiza ikiganiro twagiranye. Nyakubahwa mumaze imyaka irenga 20 muyobora u Rwanda kandi mu myaka mike iri imbere hazaba andi matora. Ese muzongera mwiyamamaze?
Kagame: Icyo nifuza kandi kiruta byose ni uko Imana ikomeza kundinda nkagira ubuzima bwiza, ibindi byo bireba Abanyarwanda. Nibo bagena ibikorerwa mu gihugu cyabo.
Gusa nanjye nshobora gufata umwanzuro. Bashobora kunsaba kongera kubayobora nkababwira ko hari akandi kazi numva nshaka gukora.
France 24: Turabashimiye Nyakubahwa
Kagame: Murakoze namwe.
