Perezida Paul Kagame aherutse guha Jeune Afrique ikiganiro kirambuye. Yagarutse ku ngingo zirimo mubano w’u Rwanda na DRC, uko yavuganaga n’abayobozi ba M23, agaciro k’Abanyarwanda n’izindi ngingo.
Ubwanditsi bwa Taarifa bwayishyize iki kiganiro cyose mu Kinyarwanda…
ISOMERE:
Jeune Afrique : Mu ijambo mwagejeje ku baturage rigenewe impera z’umwaka mwavuze ko ibiri kubera muri DRC ari bibi kurusha ikindi gihe. Ese n’ubu niko mubibona?
Paul Kagame : Ihangane ngusubirire mu mateka gato kuko buriya ntushobora kumenya ibibera muri kiriya gice utabanje kureba amateka yacyo ngo uyahuze n’uko bimeze ubu. Hariya hantu hatangiye kudurumbana mu mwaka wa 1994. Icyo gihe Abanyarwanda bagera kuri miliyoni 2 bahungiyeho intambara.
Abenshi baratahutse ubwo igihugu cyasubiraga ku murongo, ariko abandi bacye bagumayo.
Abo bahisemo kuguma yo nibo bakiduhangayikishije k’umutekano wacu. Si bo gusa ariko kuko hari n’indi mitwe y’iterabwoba ibarirwa mu ijana nayo tudashobora gusinzira ngo twirare.
Urabizi neza ko UN yoherejeyo abasirikare benshi ngo bahagarure amahoro muri za Kivu zombi, ariko amadolari n’ibikoresho bahabwa nta kintu kinini arakora ku byo bahawe nk’inshingano.
Umusaruro w’ibyo bakoze ugerwa ku mashyi.
Muri uko kudatanga umusaruro, bashatse uwo bita kuba intambamyi kuri bo basanga nta wundi babyita utari ‘u Rwanda.’
Ariko rero babibonye nabi kubera ko mu by’ukuri nyarabayaza w’ibibera hakurya ni Umuryango mpuzamahanga utarashyira mu bikorwa ibyo wiyemeje ndetse n’abayobozi ba Repubulika ya Demukasi ya Congo b’inabute, bananiwe inshingano.
Abavuga ko ibibera muri aka karere hari aho bihurira n’u Rwanda ndabumva, ariko se bahera he bavuga ko ari rwo rwonyine rukumbi rwaciye ibintu?
Ni imitekerereze idashobora kugira umuti itanga.
Igihe cyose umuryango mpuzamahanga na Guveronoma ya DRC bazakomeza kwihunza inshingano zabo muri iki kibazo ahubwo bakakigereka ku Rwanda, nta gisubizo cyacyo kirambye kizaboneka!
Nk’ubu ni gute wasobanura ukuntu FDLR ikiba muri DRC niba ubuyobozi bw’iki gihugu butayishyigikiye?
Ihamaze imyaka 29 kandi imyinshi muri yo myaka na MONIUSCO yari ihari.
Muri icyo gihe cyose, FDLR yaricaga ndetse ni kenshi yateye k’ubutaka bwacu.
Mu mpeza za 2019 yarabikoze yica abantu 14 mu Kinigi mu Karere ka Musanze, irangije isubira mu gice cya DRC.
Basize bakoze Jenoside, ariko ndagira ngo mbabwize ukuri ko kuva nkiriho ndetse n’abazabaho nyuma yanjye, nta jenoside izongera kuba mu Rwanda.
Ntabwo abantu bazongera gutega ijosi ngo bariteme cyangwa abandi birukankane bagenzi babo n’amacumu n’imihoro.
Ibyo ntibizongera ukundi.
Jeune Afrique: Ese musanga M23 ifite impamvu zumvikana zo kurwana?
Paul Kagame: Hari inama imwe yabaye mu mwaka wa 2022 nabarijemo Felix Tshisekedi nti: “ Reka tureke guca Nyanza ahubwo mbwira: ‘ Iyo ubireba usanga abagize M23, imiryango y’abo n’impunzi benewabo ari Abakongomani cyangwa ni Abanyarwanda?”
Imbere y’abandi bayobozi twari turi kumwe, yadusubije ko abo bose ari ‘Abakongomani.’
Nonese niba yemera ko ari abaturage be, hanyuma akaba afitanye ikibazo nabo, u Rwanda rubizamo gute?
Kuba bavuga Ikinyarwanda kandi ari Abakongomani ubwabyo ntacyo bitwaye kubera ko no mu Majepfo ya Uganda habayo abaturage bavuga Ikinyarwanda ariko babanye neza n’abandi, Leta ikaba iya bose.
Ikibazo iwacu tugira ni ukugerwaho n’ingaruka ziterwa n’uko iyo bahunze baduhungiraho kandi birumvikana ko tutasubiza inyuma uje atugana, asumbirijwe.
Abu abaduhungiyeho baturutse muri kiriya gihugu barakabakaba 80,000. Ubu se tuzababwire ngo ‘muhambire musubire iwanyu’.
Aho iwabo se ko ari muri DRC uragira ngo babigenze gute ko bahavuye bashushubikanyijwe?
Ubutegetsi bwa Kabila byarabunaniye, aho Tshisekedi aziye nawe reba uko ibintu bimeze!
Abantu bo muri M23 bigeze kujya kureba abayobozi muri Guverinoma nshya ya DRC yari iyobowe na Tshisekedi ngo bamugezeho uko ikibazo Kabila yananiwe kimeze, ariko babura ubakira.
Bahavuye bafite umujinya w’uko gusuzugurwa, biyimeza ko ibibazo byabo bizumvwa ari uko amasasu avuze.
Ng’uko uko intambara yongeye kurota.
Utekereze ko hari n’ubwo bajya babwira abaturage ba DRC ngo bazasubire aho baje baturuka, ubwo bakaba bashaka kuvuga mu Rwanda.
Baba bashaka kuvuga ko abo baturage bagomba gusubira mu Rwanda kubera ko mbere y’inama y’i Berlin yaciye imipaka y’Afurika tubona ubu, bariya baturage bari abo ku gice cy’u Rwanda.
Tekereza rero muri Afurika hose buri bantu bategetswe gusubira aho bahoze mbere y’iriya nama akaduruvayo byateza!
Hejuru yabyo kandi, babwirwa amagambo arimo urwango, bayabwirwa n’abayobozi muri Politiki no mu by’umutekano, bikarushaho kubabuza uburyo.
Ndabamenyesha kandi ko ibi bari gukorerwa bisa n’ibyabereye mu Rwanda mbere ya Jenoside yakorewe Abatutsi.
Aba baturage ba DRC bahura n’akaga ko kubwirwa ko bashyigikiwe na bagenzi babo b’Abatutsi bo mu Rwanda, ku isonga hakaza Paul Kagame.
Jeune Afrique: Ubwo murahaka ko nta nkunga ingabo zanyu zitera M23? Ubwo mwakwemeza ko nta mabwiriza muha Sultan Makenga n’abantu be?
Paul Kagame: Kunshinja ko nagiye muri DRC ubwabyo ntacyo bimbwiye. Kuba najyayo cyangwa ntajyayo si cyo kibazo, ahubwo ikibazo ni ukumenya impamvu yanjyana yo.
Igihe cyose hari umutwe w’iterabwoba ugamije kumara abaturage banjye, kwambika abahungu banjye bakajya kuwivuna ni ibintu nakora ntawe ngishije inama cyangwa ngo nteguze.
Iyo wugarijwe n’umwanzi, nturindira ngo abe ari we ugena igihe n’uburyo uzamwivuna, cyangwa ngo utegereze ko umushyigikiye ari we uzabikubwira.
Wowe ukora ibyawe, uko wabigennye.
Ku kibazo cy’uko njya mvugana n’abayobozi ba M23, ibyo njya mbikora kubera ko no mu masezerano ya Luanda na Nairobi, twumvikanye ko twaganira nabo kugira ngo tubasabe gukora uko bashoboye amahoro akagaruka, bakabikora binyuze no mu kuva mu bice bimwe bafashe.
Ibyo twabasabye barabikoze, ikibazo gisigara ari icy’ingabo za DRC bahanganye, zamaze kubona ko bagiye zigatangira kubagaba ho ibitero nabyo bitateye kabiri zitaratsindwa.
Jeune Afrique: Narinzi ko FDLR irakiri umutwe uhambaye, ariko ndabona mwe atari ko mubibona…
Paul Kagame: FDLR irenze kuba iyo wumva kubera ko yamaze no kugira imbaraga mu ngabo za DRC. Aho niho ikibazo kiri. Ibi ariko ntibizatubuza kujya kuzimiriza umuriro aho wakiye, babishaka batabishaka.
Nta na rimwe u Rwanda rwigeze rujya muri DRC rutajyanywe no kurengera umutekano warwo.
Jeune Afrique: Ese nta bwo mujya mutekereza ko abantu bashobora kubashyira mu kato?
Paul Kagame: Akato k’iki? Ari inde umpa akato?
Iby’akato ubyibagirwe kuko njye iyo ndi kumwe n’abaturage banjye 100% iby’akato n’ahabwa n’abandi nta gaciro biba bigifite.
Jeune Afrique: Mubona iki kibazo kizarangira gute?
Paul Kagame: Ku ruhande rumwe, M23 igomba guhagarika intambara, ku rundi ruhande, Guverinoma ya DRC nayo igashyira mu bikorwa ibyo abaturage bayo bayisaba.
Guverinoma igomba kwemera ko bariya ari abaturage bayo, ko nta mpamvu yo kubabwira ngo bazasubire iyo baje baturuka.
Imvugo y’urwango babwirwa igomba guhagarara.
Ibihugu bikomeye ku isi bigomba gufasha Repubulika ya Demukarasi ya Congo gutuza no guturisha abaturage bayo ntiyumve ko izajya ibafata ikabohereza mu Rwanda nk’aho u Rwanda rufite ubutaka bwo gutuzamo uwo ari we wese, iyo yaba aturutse hose n’icyaba kimuzanye cyose.
Jeune Afrique: Abarwanyi ba M23 baherutse kuvugwaho kwica abantu muri Kishishe. Ese mwavuga ko mwamagana ibyo bintu?
Paul Kagame: Urugomo rwose ndarwamagana, aho rwaba ruturuka hose. Icyakora hari icyo maze kubona: Ni uko abantu batajya bamagana ibikorwa na FARDC cyangwa FDLR. Ese babiterwa n’iki?
Mu by’ukuri rero, usanga nta musifuzi udafite aho abogamiye uri muri uyu mukino kandi rero ibyo ni ikibazo.
Jeune Afrique: Ese ubwo Tshisekedi mu mwaka wa 2021 yatumiraga ingabo za Uganda n’iz’u Burundi ngo zijye mu gihugu cye kumufasha kwirukana abarwanyi b’aho ariko ntatumire u Rwanda, aho sibwo yari azanye kabutindi?
Paul Kagame: Navuga ko byatanze ikimenyetso kigaragara cy’intego ze. Ubusanzwe, twe guhera mu mwaka wa 2019 na 2020 twamusabaga ko yakwemera ko ingabo zo muri aka karere zajya kumufasha gusenya abarwanyi baciye ibintu iwe. Kuba rero nyuma barahisemo guhamagara abandi twe bakadushyira ku ruhande ntacyo bari bugereho kandi ntibyigeze bikuraho na FDLR twababwiraga mbere.
Kuba bataremeye ko tujyayo kandi bisa nanone n’uko ejo bundi banze ko ingabo zacu zijya mu mutwe w’abasirikare bagize EAC bagombaga kujya kwirukana abarwanyi.
Jeune Afrique: Ubwo muheruka guhura na Tshisekedi hari muri Nzeri, 202 muhuriye i New York muhuzwa na Emmanuel Macron. Kuva icyo gihe ntimukivugana?
Paul Kagame: Ibyo ariko nibyo maze kuvuga mu kanya. Kuri twe Abanyarwanda, kuba FDLR iri k’ubutaka bwa DRC, bitubuza amahwemo.
Ubwo se urashaka kumbwira ko nakomeza kwizera umuntu uwo ari we wese navumbuye ko akorana n’umwanzi?
Jeune Afrique: Ubwo yahuraga n’urubyiruko rw’abakongomani, Perezida Tshisekedi yavuze ko yifuza ko mwava ku butegetsi ndetse yiteguye gufasha abaturage banyu kububakuraho. Ese mwabyakiriye mute?
Paul Kagame: Ni uburenganzira bwe kuvuga icyo ashaka. Erega iyo akorana na FDLR, ntugire ngo hari ikindi aba ashaka kitari uguhungabanya ubutegetsi buyoboye u Rwanda. Icyo nibaza kugeza ubu ni uburyo yumva yakoresha ngo agere kubyo atekereza.
Jeune Afrique: Amagambo yo kwanga Abatutsi, Abanyamukenge, Abanyarwanda… amaze iminsi yamaganwa n’ubuyobozi bukuru bwa DRC. Ntimbubona ko bihabanye n’uko byari bimeze mu mwaka wa 1994?
Paul Kagame: Erega burya ibikorwa biravuga kurusha amagambo. N’ubwo bavuga ko babirwanya, ariko sibyo kuko baca ruhinga nyuma bakajya gushishikariza abantu urwango ku bandi.
Jeune Afrique: DRC iri kwitegura amatora mu mwaka wa 2023. Ese musanga ibiri kubera muri kiriya gihugu hari aho bihuriye n’ibibazo gifitanye n’u Rwanda?
Paul Kagame: Birashoboka kubera ko aho kugira ngo mu kwiyamamaza kwabo babanze babwire abaturage uko bakwiye kwifata n’uburyo ubutegetsi bwabo buteganya kuzakoresha neza umutungo kamere bafite, abanyapolitiki bahitamo kuvuga u Rwanda, ibi kandi mu by’ukuri ni ukwihunza inshingano.
Jeune Afrique: Ni ibiki byakorwa ngo amahoro arambye agaruke mu Burasirazuba bwa DRC?
Paul Kagame: Ntabwo ari ‘ibiki’ ahubwo ni ‘iki’. Ni ikintu kimwe. Ntabwo ari byinshi.
Abayobozi ba Repubulika ya Demukarasi ya Congo bagomba gufata ibintu mu ntoki zabo, bakemera kureba uko ikibazo giteye bakagikemura. Ikibazo bafite icyo ari cyo cyose, cyaba icy’ubukungu, umutekano, ububanyi n’amahanga…byose nibo bagomba kubikemura.
Ntawe bakwiye kwitana nawe ba mwana.
Jeune Afrique: Ubwo se mushatse kuvuga ko ababwira abakongomani ko muri babi, babavuga uko mutari?
Paul Kagame: Ntacyo mfite cyo kubibabwira ho. Erega hari n’ikintu gitangaje. Nonese mukeka ko ibibazo biri muri kiriya gihugu byakigezeho ari uko FPR-Inkotanyi na Kagame bafashe ubutegetsi? Ubwo se ni njye nyirabayazana w’uko 1% by’abatuye DRC ari bo babona inyungu iva mu bukungu bwayo, abandi 99% bakaba bakennye? Cyangwa akaba ari njye utuma imitwe y’abarwanyi yarabiciye mu Burasirazuba bwa kiriya gihugu?
Buri wese agira ibibazo bye. Ntimuzanyumva na rimwe mbwira abaturage banjye ko ibibazo bafite babiterwa n’Abakongomani.
Ariko hari icyo nshaka kuvuga ku Bakongomani: Congo ni igihugu kinini kandi gituwe, gifite umutungo kamere ndetse n’umuco mugari. Icyakora ibi byagombye kugendana no kugira ubushobozi bunini bwo kumenya kwikemurira ibibazo.
Jeune Afrique: Muri iki gihe mubanye neza na Museveni. Ese twavuga ko icyizere cyagarutse hagati yanyu?
Paul Kagame: Mu by’ukuri tubanye neza, n’ubwo hakiri utubazo duto dushobora kuganirira hamwe tugakemuka.
Jeune Afrique: Ku Burundi ho bimeze gute?
Paul Kagame: Naho ibintu biragenda neza. Mu gihugu cyacu dufite impunzi z’Abarundi ducumbikiye kandi muri zo hari izo ubutegetsi bw’u Burundi bufata nk’impunzi za Politiki zitavuga rumwe na Leta. Iki kibazo kiracyahari ariko icy’ingenzi ni uko hari ubushake bwo kugishakira igisubizo.
Jeune Afrique: U Rwanda rwohereje abasirikare n’abapolilisi muri Mozambique no muri Centrafrique kuhagarura amahoro. Ese mwishimira umusaruro bahatanze?
Paul Kagame: Nta byera ngo de! Ariko ndemera ko ibyo bakoze biri hejuru. Hombi bakoze uko bashoboye umutekano uragaruka, abakoraga iterabwoba bagenza make. Muri Benin naho dushobora kuzajyayo kandi dufitanye imikoranire y’uburyo butandukanye harimo no mu mutekano.
Jeune Afrique: Mumaze iminsi musinye amasezerano n’u Bwongereza, Denmark na Israel ngo bazabahe abimukira bacumbikirwe mu Rwanda mu rwego rwo kubarinda ibibazo byibasira abimukira. Ese musubiza iki abavuga ko mubikora bya nyirarureshwa, mugamije kwerekana isura nziza ya kimuntu kandi ari imari muba mushaka nk’uko babibashinja?
Paul Kagame: Iyo banjora kuri iyi ngingo birangora cyane kubyumva. Ese kuki badatinda ku gitera abantu kuba abimukira? Kuki bahoza u Rwanda mu majwi kandi ruba rwatanze umusanzu mu gushaka igisubizo cy’ikibazo?
Nkiyobora Umuryango w’Afurika yunze ubumwe, ikibazo nk’iki cyariho muri Libya. Abantu bagurishwa imyanya y’imibiri yabo, nta cyizere cy’ejo bafite.
U Rwanda rwatanze umuti w’uko rubona ibintu byagenda, abo bimukira bakaza iwacu bakabaho mu buryo bwiza kurusha kure cyane uko babayeho aho mu butayu bwa Libya.
Iwacu bagombaga kuhaba neza, nyuma bakazahitamo aho bahitamo kuzajya: niba ari iwabo aho baturutse bakomoka, cyangwa ababonye ubwenegihugu ahandi nabo bakajyayo nta kibazo.
Ubwo se abatunenga batunenga iki koko?
Jeune Afrique: Muherutse gutangaza isi ubwo mwabwiraga Antony Blinken ko uretse igitero cya Amerika ari cyo gishobora gufungura Paul Rusesabagina. Ese mwemeje ko mutazamuha imbabazi?
Paul Kagame: Ijambo ‘igitero’ ntabwo ryari igitero nk’uko tukizi, ahubwo yari imvugo yerekana ko ikibazo cya Rusesabagina kiri ku mutima wacu kuko ari Umunyarwanda kurusha uko ari umuturage w’ikindi gihugu icyo ari cyo cyose.
Ubwo ni Amerika n’u Bubiligi.
Uko yafashwe simbitindaho ariko ibimenyetso byerekana ibyo yakurikiranyweho mu nkiko byo birahari.
Ni gute warekura umuntu hari ibimenyetso bifatika byerekana n’abandi bafatanyije? Ubwo nabo byasaba ko barekurwa.
Ubarekuye se wazabwira iki abo bahekuye, bakabicira abantu abandi bakahamugarira?
Imvugo ngo ‘Yes Sir’ ikora ahandi ariko mu Rwanda si ko bimeze.
Gufata ibyo twaciyemo ukabihindura bule bule byaba ari ukudusonga cyangwa kudukandagira ku gakanu kandi ntidushobora na rimwe kubyemera.
Jeune Afrique: Nibyo ko hari amategeko mwashyizeho agamije gukumira imvugo y’urwango ndetse yaganisha no kuri Jenoside. Ariko se ubu mu mwaka 29 ishize ntimwakoroshya amavisi mukareka kuyakanyaga, abantu bakinigura?
Paul Kagame : Uwakumva uko ubisobanuye yakumva byumvikana ariko mu by’ukuri bihabanye n’uko ibintu biteye. Hari ibihugu byinshi bitabamo ayo majyambere ntibibemo n’uko kwishyira ukizana uvuga.
Twe byibura dufite kimwe muri ibyo nk’uko babivuga.
Hari filimi mbarankuru yakozwe n’Abadage yigeze gucaho yerekana iterambere ry’u Rwanda, ariko nanone ikerekana ko hari ikiguzi byasabye.
Basaga n’abavugaga ko iterambere duha abaturage bacu, duca inyuma tukaribarutsa! Uzagende wibarize Abanyarwanda bazakwibwirira ukuri, bakubwire uko babayeho mu majyambere yabo.
Nugera yo se bakakubwira ko babayeho neza kandi ntawe ubanigana ijambo uzongera kumbaza icyo kibazo?
Jeune Afrique: Amatora y’Umukuru w’igihugu ataha azaba mu mwaka wa 2024. Muzongera mwiyamamaze?
Paul Kagame: Yego kandi Oya. Byose birashoboka ariko ubu ntacyo nakwemeza muri byombi.
Jeune Afrique: Ariko rero abaturage bo bazi neza ko uziyamamaza…
Paul Kagame: Yego ndabizi ko ari ko babyemera ariko bagomba kuzirikana ko ari icyemezo cyanjye nk’umuntu w’umugabo wifatira umwanzuro.
Jeune Afrique: Abenshi bavuga ko umaze imyaka 23 utegeka u Rwanda, ariko hari n’ababihera mu mwaka wa 1994. Ni iki mubwira abavuga ko ibyo ari ukwikubira ubutegetsi?
Paul Kagame: Njye ndi njye ari ko nanone nemera ko ntazi byose kandi ko ntari ku butegetsi kugira ngo ngire inyungu yindi mbikuramo. Ndabizi ko ubutegetsi bushobora gutuma umuntu yiyumvamo igitangaza kandi akaba ataburekura.
Ku rundi ruhande ariko, gukoresha nabi ubutegetsi bishobora gukorwa n’umuntu ukibugeraho nk’uko byakorwa n’ubumazeho imyaka ine, itanu, icumi, makumyabiri…
Uko byagenda kose igikomeye ni ikiva mu matora yakozwe muri Demukarasi isesuye.
Jeune Afrique: Umutaliyani Machiavel mu gitabo The Prince yanditse ko umutegetsi utinywa aramba kurusha ukundwa. Ese muremeranya nawe?
Paul Kagame: Oya. Umuyobozi nyawe ntakeneye gukundwa cyangwa gutinywa. Akeneye kubahwa.
Jeune Afrique: Nonese ntimukeneye gukundwa n’abo muyobora?
Paul Kagame: Ushobora gukundwa ariko nta nicyo wakoze! Icy’ingenzi ni ukwiyubaha hanyuma ukubaha abandi nabo bakakubaha.
